Some months ago I directed a short film for Stuart Kauffman on the emergence of complex life. It opens with him standing in a forest, Attenborough-style, gesturing at the green chaos around him — eighty years old and visibly delighted by all of it. That delight is the thing to hold on to in what follows. Kauffman — theoretical biologist, complexity theorist, one of the founding minds of the Santa Fe Institute — has spent half a century at the edge of what equations can describe. We spoke about a theorem that explains three hundred thousand years of human history, why life is not a machine, and the quiet demolition of the dream of a Theory of Everything. The conversation has been edited for length; we've tried to leave the rest of it alone.